“The Nines” church leadership insight live all day today!

Darren - Fairly new to the blogospear. Just heard about "The Nines."
So I Googled "the Nines and leadership" and a whole bunch of sites came up.
The “leader” and “pastor” comments were left on over 40 sites.
You’re the tenth to respond. And yes I know of the book “Pagan Christianity.”

Just went over your site a little and Praise God,
seems you love the Lord and desire for others to know Him as well.

I have seen the dangers of "Titles," of "Pastors," and of "leaders."
Spiritual abuse for both the "leader" and those “being led” by man.
My conclusion is the word and position of “leader” is very, very dangerous for both.

I'm not not new to "ministering healing" to those who have been abused
by those who "thought” they were “leaders."
Folks who have been burnt, burnt out, kicked out, or crawled out of "the religious system"
with it's leaders, spiritual authority, and other "heavy weights" put on folks shoulders.

I also spend a fair amount of time with pastors,
"so called leaders," who can't do it anymore.

Trying to run the show, please so many masters and
realizing they didn’t even qualify to be an elder.

Trying to please the denominational leaders, the congregation and it's leaders, and of course Jesus.
Who is often relegated to last place. Hmmm? Serving three masters, that's tough; Yes?
Preaching every week... and it better be good, being the CEO, the team leader, councilor, smiley face. etc. etc.

If "pastors" (as we see them today) are of God?
He's not taking very good care of His shepherds; Is He?.
Hmmm? Wonder why?

This is info from a website helping “burned out Pastors.”

PastorCare offers support and encouragement for pastors and their families.
At PastorCare we care about YOU and we want to help.

http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/About_Us.html

According to the Francis A. Schaeffer Institute of Church Leadership (2007)
• 77% say they do “not” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 40% report a serious conflict with a parishioner at least once a month.
• 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.

According to the Ministering to Ministers Foundation...
• Over 1600 pastors in the U.S. are forced out of their positions each month.
• Nearly 1 in 4 pastors experience a forced termination at least once during their ministry.
•Only 54% of pastors go back into full-time church related positions.

Think we might have a problem Darren?
70% of pastors are depressed or burnt out. Don't have a close friend. Hmmm?
That's who is running the show. “Leadership?”
That's who is abusing God's sheep.
I have been both abused and the abuser. It’s not pretty.

1600 pastors a month, that's 19,000 a year, leave or are pushed out. Wow!!!
That's a lot of broken hearts, disappointments, feelings of failure, pain, abuse.

Hmmm? Pastor, is this a “Title” or "position" in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many congregations are... led by a pastor?

Once again, How do "you" reconcile leaders
with "Jesus" telling His disciples "Not" to be called leader.
And none did...

Darren, I do think the word “leader" is dangerous. It creates "honor" whether we want "honor" or not.
Jesus said, "I receive not honor from men." "If I honor myself, my honor is nothing."
"Leader" becomes a position of honor. Warning, Warning, Warning,
"Titles" become idols and "pastors" become masters.
Leaders = lord it over = abuse = always

It’s always a heart issue; Isn’t it?

Are you a “servant of Christ,” or
are you “the leader? “Multitudes in the valley of decision.”

Yes!!! Be blessed in your search for truth... Jesus.

In His Service. By His Grace

Darren - Fairly new to the blogospear. Just heard about "The Nines."
So I Googled "the Nines and leadership" and a whole bunch of sites came up.
The “leader” and “pastor” comments were left on over 40 sites.
You’re the tenth to respond. And yes I know of the book “Pagan Christianity.”

Just went over your site a little and Praise God,
seems you love the Lord and desire for others to know Him as well.

I have seen the dangers of "Titles," of "Pastors," and of "leaders."
Spiritual abuse for both the "leader" and those “being led” by man.
My conclusion is the word and position of “leader” is very, very dangerous for both.

I'm not not new to "ministering healing" to those who have been abused
by those who "thought” they were “leaders."
Folks who've been burnt, burnt out, kicked out, or crawled out of "the religious system"
with it's leaders, spiritual authority, and other "heavy weights" put on folks shoulders.

I also spend a fair amount of time with pastors,
"so called leaders," who can't do it anymore.

Trying to run the show, please so many masters and
realizing they didn’t even qualify to be an elder.

Trying to please the denominational leaders, the congregation and it's leaders,
and of course Jesus.
Who is often relegated to last place. Hmmm? Serving three masters, that's tough; Yes?
Preaching every week... and it better be good, being the CEO, the team leader, councilor, smiley face. etc. etc.

If "pastors" (as we see them today) are of God?
He's not taking very good care of His shepherds; Is He?.
Hmmm? Wonder why?

This is info from a website helping “burned out Pastors.”

PastorCare offers support and encouragement for pastors and their families.
At PastorCare we care about YOU and we want to help.

http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/About_Us.html

According to the Francis A. Schaeffer Institute of Church Leadership (2007)
• 77% say they do “not” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 40% report a serious conflict with a parishioner at least once a month.
• 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.

According to the Ministering to Ministers Foundation...
• Over 1600 pastors in the U.S. are forced out of their positions each month.
• Nearly 1 in 4 pastors experience a forced termination at least once during their ministry.
•Only 54% of pastors go back into full-time church related positions.

Think we might have a problem Darren?
70% of pastors are depressed or burnt out. Don't have a close friend. Hmmm?
That's who is running the show. “Leadership?”
That's who is abusing God's sheep.
I have been both abused and the abuser. It’s not pretty.

1600 pastors a month, that's 18,000 a year, leave or are pushed out. Wow!!!
That's a lot of broken hearts, disappointments, feelings of failure, pain, abuse.

Hmmm? Pastor, is this a “Title” or "position" in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many congregations are... led by a pastor?

Once again, How do "you" reconcile leaders
with "Jesus" telling His disciples "Not" to be called leader.
And none did...

Darren, I do think the word “leader" is dangerous. It creates "honor" whether we want "honor" or not.
Jesus said, "I receive not honor from men." "If I honor myself, my honor is nothing."
"Leader" becomes a position of honor. Warning, Warning, Warning,
"Titles" become idols and "pastors" become masters.
Leaders = lord it over = abuse = always

It’s always a heart issue; Isn’t it?

Are you a “servant of Christ,” or
are you “the leader? “Multitudes in the valley of decision.”

Yes!!! Be blessed in your search for truth... Jesus.

In His Service. By His Grace

Hmmm? Leadership?

Just wondering how you reconcile
the use of the word “leader”
with what Jesus said in Mt 23:10.

The word “leader”seems like
a “high place.” Yes?

Jesus always took and recommended
the “low place.” Yes?

Jesus humbled Himself,
made himself of no reputation
and took on the form of a servant.
Php 2:7

Jesus in Mat 23:10 told His disciples “NOT” to call
themselves master/“leaders”
for you have one master/"leader” the Christ.

King James Version -
Neither be ye called masters:
for one is your Master, even Christ.

The Interlinear Bible -
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.

Phillips Modern English -
you must not let people
call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.

Today's English Version -
nor should you be called leader,
your one and only leader
is the Messiah.

The Amplified-
you must not be called
masters (leaders)
for you have one master (leader)
the Christ.

Jesus told His disciples “not”
to be called "leaders"
and none did.

Ro 1:1 Paul,
a servant of Jesus Christ...

Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus,
the servants of Jesus Christ...

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you,
a servant of Christ...

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God...

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God...

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant...

His disciples "all" called themselves "servants,"
none called themselves "leaders." None? None.
None called themselves
"servant-leader." None.

If someone
calls them self a "leader"
or thinks they are a "leader;"

Are they a "disciple of Christ?"

Wondering some more.

Most on the list of people
at this “leadership?” event
are not only considered “ leaders?”
but also have the “Title” “Pastor.”

Where in the Bible does it say “pastor = leader?”

Have you done your own study
on pastors?
I mean in the Bible?
What does the Bible say
about pastors?

Makes an interesting study.

Here’s some questions to ask
as you check out pastors.

1 - In the Bible, How many people...
have the title pastor?

2 - In the Bible, How many people are...
referred to as pastor?

3 - In the Bible, How many people are...
ordained as a pastor?

4 - In the Bible, How many congregations are...
led by a pastor?

Be blessed in your search for truth... Jesus

And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice.
If Not Now, When?

Be blessed and be a blessing.

Hey Amos and thanks for leaving a comment.

I'm curious about the heart of your question. Is your issue with the 'titles' that are being used in the modern church? or are you saying that the roles and functions being carried out by 'leaders' aren't what the bible models?

From what you posted about 'leaders' it seems like you would be fine with everything about this if they just called themselves servants. As far as the role of 'pastor' is concerned - I agree, in many ways it's a modern notion - as most of the structure of the modern church. Have you checked out the book "Pagan Christianity?" - it goes through quite an extensive list of our modern church traditions and practices and roots their secular and pagan origins.

I hope to hear more of your thoughts.

--Darren

#theNines is now over. LOTS of great insights and information was shared. See what you missed and follow-up on this event here: http://thenines.leadnet.org/